In this episode of frankly…
Rachel and Dan chat with Trevor Thomas as he shares insights from his dynamic career journey spanning journalism, government, corporate communications and HR.
Trevor discusses the art of balancing professional success with personal passions, including his commitment to community involvement and the restoration of Aretha Franklin’s former Detroit home, the Rose Estate. Don’t miss an inspiring conversation on career growth, giving back and preserving history.
Let us know what you took away from this week’s conversation, and, as always, be sure to rate, review, and subscribe!
Tune in every other Wednesday and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts (Spotify).
The transcript below is AI-generated and may contain minor inaccuracies. Tune in to the episode audio to hear the full conversation!
Transcript
Rachel
Hi, welcome to frankly. We have Trevor Thomas on the podcast. My Oh my is his background far more extensive.
Dan
Yeah. Yeah. We talked with Trevor about quite a. It goes from his start in journalism through some government policy policy, politics, work through corporate and HR positions.
Rachel
Yeah.
Dan
There is so much to talk about here.
Rachel
There is. Yeah. He really has made his jump around, so he starts it. Would TV in Grand Rapids and throughout then his career. Ends up working on Jennifer Granholm campaign and and part of her time in office. He was de and I, executive director at consumers. He was a corporate comms manager for Verizon, so really really running across the board from. Journalism, corporate communications, government and now some HR. So and he has a lot of you know, board positions too with. Instead, you know he is quite a passion for so.
Dan
Yeah, some good advice on how to get involved in that type of work also.
Rachel
Absolutely. And and really just, you know, in your career about making your career mean something, but also making sure you have another passion. And he talks about his passion, which is really freaking cool. So stay tuned for that. Has something to do with. Miss Aretha Franklin, in the city of. So he talks a little bit about his kind of side project that he’s working on, but with that, we’ll welcome Trevor.
Dan
Trevor, welcome to frankly. Yeah, of course.
Trevor
Well, thank you. Thank you for having me.
Dan
So we always kind of start out with just a little bit of background. Tell us a little bit about your career. I know there’s a lot there, but tell us about the different careers you’ve had and how you end up in your current role.
Trevor
Well, thank you and it’s a pleasure to meet both of you, the. I think the path has really been entirely uncharted. The idea that has always rooted me as I’m obsessed with with people and doing things either. For people or with people, I couldn’t just be sitting at home, I suppose. So the. Idea is I started in journalism where I was telling the stories of individuals just in my local community. So I went to Grand Valley for journalism and oh wow, I like her.
Dan
Same here for PR, but yeah Yep.
Trevor
OK, cool. And then the plan was always to be there. But I think when you start meeting people and realize how individuals are not always treated fairly. The. It weighs on your heart, and so it was really hard to be a journalist for five years. And not have an opinion. You know, we really. I took seriously our code of ethics.
Rachel
Yeah.
Trevor
And worked really hard to try to stay with. But then there was a person, Jennifer Granholm, running for governor. And for me, I I just knew that my. Thinking was that I needed to potentially go into politics or serving in government.
Speaker
Yeah.
Dan
Yeah. So what did that look like for? What? What was your role within the more like political or government sphere?
Trevor
Sure. So I had worked on the campaign. Gosh, that would have been the year 2006. Her second gubernatorial campaign. And had worked in research and come so very applicable.
Rachel
Well, in a good jump from journalism. Because journalism, you’re doing all that background research and then telling the story right.
Trevor
Yeah, for the skill sets, you’re absolutely.
Rachel
It transfers perfectly.
Trevor
And so it didn’t feel like some massive jump still paid almost no money.
Rachel
Yeah. Yeah, no change there either. Yeah.
Trevor
Had spent almost two years, then the first year in the campaign, we were successful. And then. Year in government and government is difficult, right? Moves. We had divided government which actually I think is great for the state of Michigan and even federally when it’s possible. But in that case it felt like we were getting nowhere. And it’s just very difficult. When you’re. Very young and you have all this passion and you don’t know what to do with all this energy. And so I had taken it from there then and went to DC to work just solely on LGBTQ policy publicly.
Rachel
Living in DCI love DC. It’s a fun city, but it feel. Sometimes it can feel heavy just with everything going on there. So when you were in DC? How long were you there and kind of what brought you back ’cause it your roles? There were still in communications at that?
Trevor
Point in time, still in communications in the in the sphere of public policy. Had first worked on. The Ryan White care. So Ryan White authorization, actually the idea of funding HIV AIDS in the United States treatment and then we were successful, but that was under the Bush administration. So it was really important because. It it helped me think about how to be able to create relationships with individuals that might be from a different, different partisan background, but you agreed on the same public policy and then worked on the hate crimes statute.
Rachel
Totally.
Trevor
For the first year, Barack Obama was in office, so we passed that in the name of James Byrd and Matthew Shepard, both killed because of who they were and then was successful eventually after. A number of years working on the repeal of Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell, so that service members around the world could serve with integrity. It was better for our national security.
Speaker
Yeah.
Trevor
Weren’t lying or trying to evade your your clearances, and so hopefully left.
Speaker
Alright, what?
Trevor
There, on a number of pieces of public policy that made life a little bit easier for individuals.
Rachel
Good for you. Mean that? Is. Hard work and and like good, honest work, it’s it’s very impressive that you spent so much of your career in that, then you made a jump from comms to HR. Talk about that. We’ve had some discussions with HR leaders before. And we see so much of that crossover. It goes back to people like you said, helping people comms in HR both have the art and science of people. Find them. What made you make that jump?
Trevor
Well, for me it was a spirit of inclusion which I didn’t fully appreciate. You know, we didn’t say these terms like diversity, equity, inclusion that we say today back 15 and 20 years ago and but it has always been about trying to make either a workplace, whether that. If I was in corporate America or. A non profit. Government a little bit easier for individuals so that we can get the job done, whatever that might be, whether it’s for the purpose of making money or making government better, whatever that could be. And so I have found a real home in the space of human resources or people or culture, whatever you’d like to call it, because it it is sort of the fab. Able to connect with individuals, find common ground and to be able to make life a little bit easier, which I keep saying.
Rachel
Yeah.
Trevor
So what I think is so important in in recognizing that you meet so many people. Of so many dimensions and so many backgrounds and walks of life, when you’re in. The major cities are even here in Michigan, and everyone just wants to have someone understand. And so I think empathy is sort of underrated, and we can all listen to each other and we can all.
Rachel
Yeah.
Trevor
Attempt to be able to have. A little bit of caring.
Rachel
Well, specially considering the fact that we spend majority of our time at work with coworkers doing those things that if it’s not a good place for someone to be, why would they want to be there? They give you their best self. So I think it’s necessary to recognize that if we’re going to spend this much time with the people around us and all work toward the same goal. Feel good about what we’re doing. Makes a lot of.
Trevor
It helps.
Rachel
It does.
Trevor
Helps.
Speaker
It does.
Trevor
And it’s OK to have an uncharted. I mean, just to be able to summarize, I think your opening question too like I you know, how do you make, what do you make of? Doing all these different things. And I affectionately I have this personal trainer in my life and for seven years he has, he has felt frustration and you’ll see I don’t. I don’t want to do when you know when I grow up or like when I’m not a personal trainer and I say the same line like I have no idea what I want to do and I just think.
Rachel
Yeah, yeah.
Trevor
Done. Are the days where we may be like I was saying before we started recording, my parents were at General Motors, both 30 years plus. They had met in the. And had been, you know, it was a big part of our lives, and now it’s just a different approach and change is extremely stressful.
Speaker
Absolutely.
Trevor
So if anyone listening has to go through it, I mean you can always reach out. Any of us on this podcast?
Rachel
Absolutely, absolutely.
Dan
Of course, yeah.
Rachel
There’s a beauty in it too though. I was just going to say, like, there’s a beauty in not having to know or like the pressure you could wake up a year from now and decide to do something completely different and that’s OK, right? Like, I do feel like the 30 years at one company. They trade their employees well. They gave him what I like to call golden handcuffs and pensions, right? There’s a reason they got you to stay. Not like that anymore. So nobody is that hurt when you say, like, I’m going to go try something else.
Dan
Right. Yeah. If you’re following something that you’re passionate about, if it’s just a great opportunity sometimes, yeah.
Rachel
Would never be upset with someone, yeah.
Dan
But you know one question I guess if you if you look. Throughout that career, right. And and going back to journalism, is there one kind of theme or one kind of core skill or core competency that you built in the journalism in The Newsroom that kind of carried throughout that you all that you go back to as something like? As a good lesson learned from that time.
Trevor
Well, I’ve referenced empathy, but I’ll take it broader and just say values. And I know that this is like corporate jargon, like, oh, we have these values. But for me? You really? You have to know who you are. When I went to Graduate School and we took, you know, a number of classes just generally. Leadership, I would summarize. All of them. And your success as a. So all these recommendations they put towards you is based on your sense of self. You able to self. Do you have a strong understanding of who you are? And you could boil it down to what your strengths are and what your opportunities are and all those things that I guess we talked about. But the reality is, is once you really have a strong sense of self, you can really do anything and so change and confront. That becomes a little bit easier facing obstacles, not wanting to quit at the end of every shift because you had a horrible experience. Mean. I certainly felt that early in journalism and even now in corporate. Their large structures. So when employers have 10,020 thousand, 100,000 employees. It can be really daunting and and you sort of think about, well, why can’t we just change policies super quickly and I think it just happens in every workplace. And so if you know who you are, life gets a lot easier.
Rachel
Yeah.
Dan
Yeah. And that’s a great point, because I mean we’re. Node 10,020 thousand people here, we’re closer to. But even here, it’s like you want to change a policy. It can be. It’s a big change. Like, I cannot imagine on the 1020 thousand people scale what that even looks like or what it takes to just to communicate that with every.
Rachel
Well, I was going to say it’s the change and then my mind goes to now how do we tell that to everybody and?
Dan
Yes.
Rachel
Do we do it in a way that? Make sense to? That gets the point across. Feels empathetic. Because at large corporations, sometimes they’ll make decisions that you’re never going to all 1020 thousand people are not always going to like that choice, right?
Dan
It’s impossible.
Rachel
You’re never going to please everyone, so. How do you approach it? Do you you know? Again, like I said, everyone working toward a common goal in a large company can get hard.
Dan
Yeah.
Rachel
Mean from a communication standpoint?
Dan
Yeah, and and that’s maybe a question like do you do a lot of work with the internal communications team as as kind of a leader in HR? What is your relationship with with comms look like? Or how important is that?
Trevor
Well, I would say in any channel.
Speaker
Consume.
Trevor
Comms has always been fundamental, not just how you talk about things, where words matter, but also the channels or vehicles you choose to use. I would have said comms was core and critical when I was in government. And affairs. And same with now in people and culture to be able to ensure that individuals know that when we are intending to talk to them, it could be a two way discussion, but also people hear and receive things differently as individuals. And so it might mean something different for the various channels and departments etcetera, but the the overall arching would be explain your why and that can apply with just a two person conversation.
Rachel
Yeah.
Trevor
Always explain why. I have learned so much too to use I statements, so there might be a public policy announcement. But when I have to bring it to members of my team, or if I’m just convincing you in this podcast, I would say I Trevor think or believe because. Statements are really powerful. It kind of disarms conversations, too. And then always assume positive intent. It’s so hard. You know, sometimes when you get into some of the policy arena, there are things that have to come first before other. There are things that you can share and can’t share, but your best practice, and I think you see this as PR professionals in the spirit of transparency explaining the why. And then assuming positive intent the whole.
Dan
Way, yeah, I tell us your why is always one of our first questions when we when we meet with a new client, when we meet with you know, anybody that we’re starting a partnership with in any way. Is. Getting to. Core of that because it is so important. Such an important part of the story. It’s the core of the story that we need to end up telling eventually the the I statement piece is interesting though, because I think sometimes you can see some of these explanations that get so ambiguous where you’re you almost feel like you’re. On somebody else’s message, if there’s a big policy change or things like that, and that is so important to show that you are on board, that you.
Rachel
Yeah.
Dan
Understand and back these types of things. That’s a good point.
Rachel
You’ve done a lot of work as board members or volunteers or your career in advocacy or with organizations. If somebody was looking to get started with anything along those lines, where would you encourage them to start? Can feel very daunting, so maybe feels very passionate about something or wants to get involved, but they don’t where to start or how. You made a jump career wise to government, but what would? What advice would you give somebody that’s just like looking to make a change, whether it be in the same thing that you are or just something around the city, whatever it might be?
Trevor
This is an amazing question because it could be an entire podcast in itself.
Rachel
Yeah.
Trevor
Go. It is how you should. So for me, I was already engaged in the LGBTQ community. I was already engaged in, especially in Detroit and the African American community to where I was volunteering for a number of initiatives and then caring about public policy and talking to my lawmakers just as a resident this. Nothing to do with. Even with my job.
Rachel
Sure.
Trevor
Or anything else, but just a citizen and so was invited then to join boards, whether it be the Urban League here in Detroit, or join the Board of Equality Michigan, which was sort of our long standing LGBTQ. Public policy arm in the state and then have joined other boards that are focused entirely. On non profit intent of being able to be engaged in. The idea of this is helpful, especially for the power of network, and I know that it’s such a a a term that’s thrown around often, but I’ll meet individuals who get stuck. Maybe their supervisor, they feel held. Or maybe they’re holding themselves back as they’re not sure if this is the place for them and. The the upside to being able to engage in other things like the nonprofit or volunteerism is your meeting individuals and it can help you become unstuck or to be able to find other callings that you might have if it wasn’t for me involved in a nonprofit spaces. I. Would have probably never left. Journalism or government. And I had started my first board. I think I was 19 years old and.
Rachel
That’s impressive.
Trevor
So I I really. You know, be involved outside of just your job and it will help in so many ways. A powerful line actually is by a. And it was at an inclusion conference and the individual in the audience had said, you know, I’m having trouble with my supervisor or I feel held back. And whatever the reasons could be it. Doesn’t really matter. The person on stage immediately. Without reservation. Oh, you’re a nine. Reporting to A5 or however you want to think about it. And the only way to get out is to be able to go around an individual holding you back. And so you can do that in the workplace by being able to ask for either mentors or advocates on your behalf or.
Rachel
Another trusted individual. That you maybe do see eye to eye with.
Trevor
Totally, yeah. Yeah. And so I think it’s just really important when you ask the question about getting involved in your community. It is not to do it for selfish purposes, but just don’t underestimate how it can change you and your reflection of the world.
Rachel
I think that’s really powerful because you also will probably put less pressure on it when we go into work situations, they automatically like kind of start with more pressure because it’s work and it’s your livelihood and it’s, you know. You go to network at a you know any kind of work event and it’s like, OK. Can I get for them? Get from them where they get for me or but.
Dan
Yeah, it’s transactional in some way, yeah.
Rachel
It’s very transactional. I think when you volunteer or do something on. Because of a passion, you remove that a little bit because you know going in that the people that are there are there because they care. You have similar values and views and so you can kind of let your guard down a little bit more and just see the. For what they are and enjoy your time there and like you said. More than you even expected might come out of it versus you go in with expectations when it has something to do with the workplace. It’s a good spot to meet people with similar values. Out so much pressure that could change things for you in a work way in a nonwork way in a you. Community volunteerism way. But it feels a lot better.
Trevor
You balance your mental. I mean when you say feel better, I think of that because.
Rachel
Yeah.
Trevor
I have already lived many years where I’m all in for my employer and we used to have black bears in government and I would be available 1:00 AM or 2:00 AM or 3:00 AM.
Speaker
Yeah.
Trevor
And it actually changed color on the. And so it would light up your room from green to red, and it would be flickering off the.
Speaker
Yeah.
Rachel
Oh my God.
Trevor
And so I be like, Oh my gosh, I have an e-mail I need to respond immediately and my entire ethos has changed in in what? Actions and behaviors are now. Because of doing other extra curriculars that I. I see value in and it helps us.
Rachel
Yeah.
Trevor
With the stronger of who we are and sense of self because we’re not putting all of our marbles into 11 pot, especially if you don’t have a relationship. I was single during most of these. Most of these moments.
Rachel
Yeah. Yeah. You know, Speaking of that, it brings up an interesting point. You talk about mental health and doing something else. We have to talk about your side project. Tell us a little bit about about Aretha Franklins. Give us a little bit of a background. What have you been doing?
Dan
Your house, I guess, yeah.
Rachel
A small piece, your house. That you’re historic.
Trevor
Yeah. So we wanted our actions. Louder than our. So for the first couple of years, we really didn’t talk about it, although now it’s public. The New York Post, of all places, by the way, that’s called.
Speaker
It’s shocking, yeah.
Trevor
They were like we pulled the deed. We know you own.
Speaker
And it’s like, why?
Trevor
Miss Franklin’s estate, right.
Rachel
How did you even look that look? Yes, yes.
Dan
What were you? What were you looking for?
Trevor
It was very. Anyway, we didn’t respond to them and then other others figured it out.
Rachel
Yeah.
Trevor
The intent is that. I had done some minor house restoration stuff. I had lived in a 1927 Tudor for almost 8 years by that point. And knew I wanted one more home project in the city of Detroit, and the intent was that I didn’t know what that was going to be. Then Brandon, my my partner.
Speaker
Mm.
Trevor
We had when the pandemic hit committed to driving the two of us, every neighborhood in the city, we had never really been to every neighborhood and we would end up near the Detroit Golf Club fairly regularly on our returns because we lived in Sherwood Forest. So that that’s.
Rachel
Trevor
Next, if you’re not familiar with Detroit, these are just neighborhoods next to each other.
Speaker
Right.
Trevor
And in you would just see this home that looked like it. Bit of love and. The you know, we we then worked with a realtor and had learned that it was owned by Miss Franklin and then later a holding company. But it just is another story where patients assuming positive intent. All those things really comes into alignment because we. Reached out in 2020 in in the pandemic, and then didn’t hear anything until February of 23, and it had been listed the whole time.
Rachel
Wow.
Dan
Crazy.
Trevor
It was 1.2 million. Jules probably did higher offers and ours was a very low offer because we knew the amount of work that needed to go into it.
Rachel
Absolutely.
Trevor
And people. By the way, so I I. I haven’t talked about this portion yet, but people will make microaggressions all the time when they stop by the house. It’s usually a. Adverse towards Miss Franklin about taking care of her home and it’s highly offensive to us and people don’t realize that it she had not been there a number of years. One she had lived in Oakland County, but then two had. Also been, you know, fighting for her life and and facing her battles and so.
Rachel
Absolutely.
Dan
Things that are more important.
Trevor
So yeah, some things are more important than the lawn or. Like that. And so we’re so thrilled to be able to maintain and preserve anything that Miss Franklin had in the home, whether it be her famous. Red Claw foot bath or gold sconces or door handles made by Cheryl Wagner for.
Rachel
So cool.
Trevor
And so all these things we’ve spent a couple of years preserving and open have opened up once to the public. And we’ll see what we can do.
Dan
That’s so cool because you know it’s it would be probably so much easier to go in as a, you know, true renovation and take it out, put it back new. But to be able to make sure that that some of that stuff lives on. And stays in that like original state that she, you know, she originally envisioned it to be. That’s, I mean that’s got to be a large workload though. Do you go about some of that? Even just like sourcing materials or things like that.
Rachel
The balance, yeah.
Dan
To make sure you’re. You’re keeping it original.
Trevor
Well, exceptionally difficult when it’s your side. Yeah, they are still working for, you know, livelihood. But you have hit the the number one, sort of what our route was, which is are we restoring or are we renovating? And so that is so difficult when you take into the three considerations of quality time and price or budget and we work. To rearrange anything possible to be at restoration every. So the perfect example is the original 1 inch thick slate roof where the entire home is held up by steel because otherwise it would collapse from the weight of the the slate.
Dan
Tracy.
Trevor
And. If you go to Detroit Golf Club or if you go to any of our historic communities in the city, whether it’s Indian Village, Boston, Edison or Palmer Woods, etcetera, you’ll see a number of homes have removed their slate roofs because they’re extraordinarily difficult to maintain and they’re very. Price sort. You know they they hog the budgets of.
Rachel
Yeah.
Trevor
And so for us, it’s true that we had lined up to remove the roof into a traditional asphalt. And Brandon looked at me when we were pulling out the driveway one day and he just said this will be the biggest mistake of your life. And I said, to be honest, take our mistake.
Rachel
Yeah, we’re in this together.
Trevor
And so we reflected and I think it relates to. Business a little bit and what we how we should think differently. And so I invited the gentleman from Detroit, cornice and Slate. They’re great partners.
Speaker
Yeah.
Trevor
Not paid for this, that advertising.
Speaker
Trevor
But had them stand in the backyard and I had said if you look around, everyone has removed their slate roof except for two homes in this like legendary golf course by Donald Ross. Henry Ford was an early member and it was the pinnacle and center of Detroit for. While. And he had just said, what are you? And I would said, well, if we did the full project at once, we could never afford it. Think we publicly said it was $300,000, which is a large number. And.
Rachel
Yeah. If the house was listed for 1.2 and three, you had needed 300,000 just for a roof. I mean, that is. Insane.
Trevor
And I only share the number because it it we were equally as freaked out.
Speaker
Mm.
Trevor
And we knew that we could never do. And so I had just said, what if we have true partnership where we do it over time? We do a five year deal and we start with the core critical. We knew we had 7 water entry points. And then move on from there. That’s what we’re. We’re we’re still in the restoration. It will be 5 years. There’s no quick fix, but that’s the trade-offs that we have just in life, but also in our side hobbies too.
Rachel
No. I I can’t wait to see what you do with it. Whenever you are completed and whatever you’d like to share. It’s I say this not out of selfishness, but by the time this comes out, it’ll be the day before. We have a client who owns an interior design. Studio in Detroit and she just purchased an old abandoned church in Indian village that she’s now turning into her residence. And so tomorrow. Which will be the day before this comes out. But they’re doing an open house and opening it up to the community. Because it’s sat vacant for selling and so many people have said, you know, like, what’s going to happen to A and she is the perfect person to buy. Mean they had to go through an RFQ with the Detroit Land Bank who they bought it from to show what they would do. What would they restore and keep versus? All of that stuff, and it’s going to be she’s keeping all of the stained glass windows and, you know, really holding it true to what it is. Outside Will really remain exactly, you know, as church in the way that it looks and. The neighborhood has been so welcoming and happy that she’s the one that ended up purchasing it. Right because. It’s kind of. It’ll be a fixture of that neighborhood, and it’s just like you like you were the right people to get that house. And so I think it’s in the city of Detroit finding the right people for these historic places that are going to do them justice and and truly. Them versus renovate them and kind of find that balance. That you give it 10 years and I think you’ll notice such a difference in the city when these properties land in the right hands. It’d be really cool.
Trevor
Thank you for sharing that. And it’s it’s very, very kind. And we do believe it was, it was meant to be. I mean, no matter what anyone believed.
Rachel
Yeah. Yeah.
Trevor
You know, we waited 3 1/2 to four years for the for it to ultimately happen.
Rachel
Yeah, there’s a reason that other people’s bids were declined. Was accepted. Whatever that may be, it makes sense. But all right, one final question. I feel like you’ll have a fabulous answer to this. Like to ask people what? Is one piece of advice you would give your 20. Year old self.
Trevor
Oh, don’t worry so much. I mean I could easily push back on myself and say, you know, it is always trying to be perfect and don’t make it the enemy of the good. And I could give all the isms. And I’m sure my 21 year old self would say forget you. Who? You.
Speaker
Yeah.
Trevor
But I really mean it. You know, if there’s individuals in their first role or if there’s individuals. In their last role and still don’t feel that connection to supervisor or their environment and their culture. It’s stressful stuff. I probably worried too much though, and it’s easier. Steve Jobs talks about this when he spoke. Believe it was Stanford. To look back on how the dominoes fall and how you made things work out. And that it will be OK. But when looking ahead, it’s scary and it’s.
Rachel
Yeah.
Trevor
And so I was always deeply worried it was tied to my personal story, too, of just being cut off financially for being LGBTQ and having to be able to figure stuff out when my Grand Valley State classes dropped. I was like, Oh my goodness. I’m not a college student.
Rachel
Yeah, yeah.
Trevor
What’s happening? And so being able to get through critical moments, I was always worried about the next thing. So it has served me in some ways. But when I look back, it is also a partial regret. To not live life a little bit as one mentee had said.
Rachel
I think it also lends to you saying finding your sense of self. Each one of those tribulations. Gave way to you figuring out even more of your sense of self, right?
Dan
What time?
Rachel
That carried you through. So think that’s great advice, yeah.
Speaker
Awesome.
Trevor
Well, I’m really curious what other people have said.
Rachel
It’s run the gamut, honestly. I feel like our favorite 1 was just before Christmas where we talked about like right in the margins, reading the margins where it was kind of this idea of. Your life can you know, we’re focused on the words on the page, but what about all the things you can scribble in the margins? All those things you could tell yourself that are related or you know your your thoughts about things that maybe don’t. On. Page but deserve to be there or. It was just kind of this beautiful thing of that life doesn’t have to be so structured or the, you know, the perfect draft every time when something’s published. But like, if you were to pick up someone. Book on a shelf and they had writing in the. That’s where you’re going to find the good stuff. Right, like that. That was a very. Just well thought answer. So we’ve.
Speaker
Hmm.
Rachel
I mean, there’s been.
Dan
There’s been a lot, but I think it a lot of them do come back to like giving yourself some grace, given being empathetic towards yourself in some ways like not not sweating the small stuff.
Speaker
Yes.
Rachel
That serious, we hear a lot.
Dan
There is a lot of that, that. You know, I think everybody tells themselves that in some way or another, but you have to hear it again and again because every time something big comes up, you’re gonna sweat the small stuff.
Speaker
Yeah.
Rachel
Mm.
Dan
So I think it’s a a message worth worth saying as much as you can. Is just live in that moment and be be present an don’t.
Rachel
Yeah, truly. Well, thank you for your time, Trevor and all of your advice and lessons. Was a pleasure to talk with you.
Trevor
I was grateful to be here with you and I had a lot of fun.
Rachel
Good.
Dan
All. Well, thanks again to Trevor. Great discussion really. I mean, I love hearing about the house at the end there and this project like, I cannot wait to see.
Rachel
Oh yeah.
Dan
The end result of that is so cool.
Rachel
Absolutely. And just him talking about, you know, how he’s jumped all around. I think he has good advice of it’s OK if you don’t know where you’re going. That’s that’s kind of the fun of it. That’s the beauty of it. You can have a full career and still not know.
Dan
Yeah.
Rachel
You’re going so.
Dan
Yeah, there’s always going to be some uncertainty and more than other.
Rachel
Yeah. And you know. Enjoy the uncertainty I think is is part of the advice, so we will see you next time.
Dan
Yeah.
