In this episode of frankly…
Rachel and Dan chat with marketing strategist and futurist Mark Schaefer to explore how to thrive in a world shaped by AI.
From his book “Audacious”, Mark makes the case for “out-humaning” AI by leaning into what machines can’t do – forging emotional connections, telling bold stories and embracing creativity with audacity. He shares examples of brands breaking rules, refusing to be boring and using imagination as a survival strategy.
Mark also previews his upcoming book, “How AI Changes Your Customers,” revealing how AI is already reshaping behavior, attention and trust – and why marketers must adapt if they want to keep up.
Let us know what you took away from this week’s conversation, and, as always, be sure to rate, review, and subscribe!
Tune in every other Wednesday and subscribe to where you listen to podcasts (Spotify | Apple Podcasts).
The transcript below is AI-generated and may contain minor inaccuracies. Tune in to the episode audio to hear the full conversation!
Transcript
Dan
Hello and welcome back to frankly.
Rachel
Happy to have you.
Dan
Today we are talking with Mark Schaefer, who is a globally recognized keynote speaker, futurist business consultant and author centering around a lot of marketing ideas.
Rachel
Marketing strategies, digital strategies, social branding, lots of stuff.
Dan
Yeah. So we we really dig in with Mark into the topic of AI because that is kind of at the core of his latest in a long series of books called “Audacious”. So he talks about kind of the importance of out humaning AI as he puts it, for marketers to kind of find our role within an increasingly AI driven world. And then he also gives us a kind of sneak preview of something to come very soon, which is his next book in the works.
Rachel
Yeah, yeah. And they definitely tie together. So they would be a good kind of read back-to-back, but he has done a lot of research and has spent time with people in the marketing space, creatives and and even then, like your audience and how they’re interacting with AI is kind of part of his next book. So a lot of good information in here. He has some really good examples of things he’s worked on. And so just in general, really good AI topics today, little different than what we’ve talked about with AI before.
Dan
Yeah.
Dan
Yeah. Yeah.
Rachel
So with that, let’s welcome Mark. Hi, Mark, welcome to frankly.
Dan
Welcome.
Mark
I’m delighted to be here. Thanks for having me.
Rachel
We’re delighted to have you. Your background is extensive. You’ve done nearly everything, so why don’t you just take us through your career path? How you got to where you’re at today and and kind of what you’re doing currently?
Mark
Give you the very short version, so I’ve I’ve always loved communication and writing and and and marketing. And worked most of my career in corporate B2B marketing with a Fortune 100 company. And I guess it’s been 16 or 17 years ago now they wanted to transfer me to Switzerland and I I didn’t really want to go. And I looked at my different options and I decided to start my own business. So I started consulting and this was at a time when social media was getting really, really hot. And I thought this was endlessly fascinating. Sort of on a whim, I started a blog and I’ve been blogging ever since. Every week, never miss, and the blog became popular and led to an invitation to write books. And along the way I also got my MBA and that’s significant because I got to study under Peter Drucker. There’s not too many people you ever talked to that got to meet him let alone study under him for three years so that was quite an extraordinary life changing opportunity for me. And so I’ve really made my career around marketing strategy. I think that’s my sweet spot. I love solving hard marketing problems. That’s led me to write really interesting books that solve hard marketing problems like the the latest one I’m sure we’re going to talk about is where to where do humans fit in this AI world?
Dan
Yeah
Rachel.
Yeah.
Mark I’ve continued to blog. I have a podcast and I I do. I’m a professional speaker and I teach at Rutgers University.
Rachel
You know, I normally say people can’t do it all, but I really feel like you. You make a point to do it all, Mark. So it’s it’s very impressive. So you talked about AI and your newest book, so jump into that a little bit. So “Audacious” is the book itself.
Speaker
Yeah.
Rachel
You talk about this kind of out humanizing AI, right? What does that mean to you? What are you seeing with your focus and AI? What do you see as the threat? What about opportunity? Talk a little bit about your theory on humans and AI?
Mark
Well, the first thing is I like I’m a realist and I don’t sugar coat anything and I’m trying to help people navigate for through what’s real, how do we thrive and survive? And I think in many ways the a lot of the leaders in the tech industry are trying to lull us into this false sense of security. Saying ohh AI, it will just augment human capabilities. ********! I mean, come on. I mean, it’s gonna, it’s gonna replace much of what we do. It already is. So it it’s it’s an existential threat and and it should make you sweat if you’re a knowledge worker. And so that’s what I struggled with. I wanted to come up with a like a real down to Earth truly meaningful answer to this. Where are we going to fit?
Dan
Right.
Mark
What remains. And sort of the theme of the book. It focuses on a number of different areas where it’s going to be human. It’s got to be human. It always will be human, and that’s where we really need to add our emphasis. So if you’re just, if you’re competent, if you’re happy that you’re competent, you’re going to go away because AI is, is competent or more than competent. Competent is ignorable. You’ve got to stop being ignorable, and that is the main theme of the book, and it sort of urges people to be a little crazy to and. And look, there’s it also gets into, like, the infrastructure of boring. Why most marketing is boring. It’s one of the in the early in the book, it talks about a study that was done in the UK and they looked at six, I think it was 60 thousand marketing and advertising programs.
Rachel
Wow.
Mark
And they ran all these through these human panels and what they found was about. 2/3 of these advertising and marketing programs had no emotional residents with the audience at all. It was either negative or zero like 2/3. Now if you had like a CEO of the entire advertising industry, they’d be fired because it’s terrible results. They were so shocked at how bad marketing is around the world.
Rachel
And I can’t imagine the investment they made to get 0 right, I mean the amount of dollars.
Mark
Yeah, that’s right. And and and they they were so shocked how bad this was, they thought what is the most boring thing we could think of. They made a video of a cow eating grass and that performed as well as most advertising.
Dan
Oh, that’s painful.
Mark
And so it it just sort of shakes people up and and to say look, just look at what you’re doing, look at your industry, are you just like in a country club? Where everybody does the same thing because we’ve always done the same thing. And there are some reasons why you have to be boring like if you work in pharma or some regulated industry.
Dan
Sure.
Rachel
Sure.
Mark
But most of the most of the the biggest reason people are boring is because they’re afraid. They’re afraid of shaking it up. They’re afraid of doing something different. They’re afraid of being chastised by the legal department. They’re afraid of losing a customer. And if if fear is the reason that you’re boring, you have got to reflect on that because AI is coming for you.
Rachel
Yeah.
Mark
And so the book walks through. So I had this amazing opportunity. I got to meet and interview some of the most amazing creative people in the world like how do you cut through? How do you dig deep and tell this story in a new way? And what I found there was a pattern. That to stand out among all this noise and all this boring, you kind of have three choices. So you’re a marketer, you’re an advertiser. You’re telling a story, so you disrupt A. the narrative. You disrupt where it’s told. And you disrupt who tells it because chances are, if you tell it, nobody’s going to believe you. But if you get other people to tell it, then you’re you’re creating something audacious. You’re creating something that’s gonna cut through the through the math. And so that’s the heart of the book. And it. And then it. It’s very, very specific with lots of case studies, lots of tips, these amazing creatives. Not to they shared their best ideas. They shared their their secrets, and it’s it’s very humbling to read like, Oh my gosh, these people are helping us so much. So that’s that’s sort of the the the idea behind the book.
Dan
Yeah, I I love that. And when, so you talked about the you talked about the three different ways. So talk a little bit about the first one on the narrative side, because a lot of thinking about where we’re coming from is more on the messaging communication side of things. Talk about the narrative disruption and maybe like some of the interesting examples you saw there of maybe adding some personality into the narrative itself or adding something unique, shocking, disruptive in that in that sense.
Mark
Well, I I was really inspired about this idea. I attended South by Southwest. This huge event in in Texas and it’s a very prestigious event.
Dan
Yeah.
Mark
If you get to speak, there is a, it’s a big deal and one of the talks on the agenda was the title was Taboo by Design. I thought, oh, that sounds interesting. So I went to this presentation and there’s these two brothers up on the stage and they run an agency in Australia called Taboo Group and the guy starts off by saying you know, when I was a little boy, my mother said I don’t care what you do with your life, just don’t be boring. And I’ve kind of been obsessed with that. And we try to think about what could we do in our talk today that would make you remember us. So what we’ve decided to do is every time someone leaves the room, we are going to take off a piece of our clothing. Now at this point, there’s like this buzz going through the room like what did they just say?
Dan
Yeah.
Mark
And I’m thinking I’m starting to take this personally because I’m thinking if I what if I have to go to the bathroom, right. I don’t want to start this, like, avalanche of clothing falling on the floor. Well, sure enough, they did it and at the end of the talk and and and it was funny because the guy said. Everyone we talked to and and told them our idea said this is an exceedingly bad idea. But we would rather be humiliated in front of you today than to be forgotten. And they created more buzz of than almost any other presentation at South by Southwest. People were taking their photos, they were interviewing. And darn got it, they made it into my book. Yeah. And but what they were demonstrating was this idea of breaking bad rules for good reasons. And and and so it’s like what keeps us tethered to these formats to these rules of storytelling and marketing. And today, especially with AI we live in this world of magic, it’s just absolute magic. And so this was an example of disrupting the narrative of just, you know, saying we’re just going to do it in a different way that nobody’s seen before. Even the cover of my book disrupts the narrative. So I’m thinking my book is called audacious, I better do something audacious now. How do you disrupt the freaking publishing industry that has not changed for 250 years? You can do anything new. But so what I did is I created like this QR code on the cover of the book, the whole book is cover is just a QR code and I uploaded the the manuscript to AI and AI is creating abstract art based on the stories in the book.
Dan
Oh.
Mark
And you hover your phone over the cover the cover changes endlessly.
Rachel
That’s really cool.
Dan
That is very cool.
Mark
It’s the Infinity cover.
Dan
OK.
Mark
It’s never been done before. And and and and so what did I do? I I just I did. I disrupted everything. I disrupted how the story is told. It’s on a book cover, right. Yeah, let’s do this. But I’m just using technology in a new way. It’s there for everyone to use. I’m disrupting where the story is told. I’m disrupting who’s telling the story. It’s no person.
Dan
Right, right.
Rachel
Yeah, it’s AI.
Mark
Yeah.
Rachel
It’s interesting. So in our last episode we were talking about crisis communications, but something that you said strikes this like I thought of this. So if you have seen recently the latest American Eagle jeans advertising with Sydney Sweeney, right where they talked about how she has good genes and it really went on to like the public kind of was in an uproar. People there loved it or hated it. It was this whole thing. And when they put out their statement, they had said, like we knew. It was going to do this basically right and we did it anyway because that was we wanted to.
Mark
Hell yeah.
Dan
Yeah.
Mark
American Eagles been doing that for years, by the way.
Dan
Yeah.
Rachel
And so, but it goes back to what you’re saying, right, people, I think in today’s culture and this like cancel culture, right, quote on quote that we have are more afraid to do things like that because like you said, they’re going to lose customers, but it’s like, but maybe you get the right customers that you’re looking for or.
Mark
Well, that’s right most of the people who are offended by the Sydney Sweeney thing, they’re they’re not their customers anyway.
Rachel
Yeah. So.
Mark
Yeah, and and and so you you you know, you gotta be a you. You you can’t be reckless. You know, audacious is not being about illegal. Yeah, it’s not about being offensive. It’s not about being reckless, but it’s just shaking it up.
Rachel
Yeah!
Mark
Breaking bad rules for good reasons. And just pushing the edges a little bit and and you know, doing something that the industry isn’t used to.
Rachel
Yeah. And then defending and admitting to that too, right? Not saying like, ohh we back down. If you’re gonna do it, then do it then.
Mark
I mean, look at the, I mean, the greatest case study, I think that a lot of people, at least in America are talking about because it really isn’t anywhere else in the world yet is Liquid Death and and and the the guy that founded Liquid death he didn’t get into that because he was obsessed with water. He just thought this is an opportunity for a market that is so freaking boring.
Dan Yeah.
Mark
I can do almost anything and do something better than what they’re doing, right. Everything is clear and pure and has a name like Rainbow Springs and you know the only thing I remember from the very first marketing class I ever took was never associate your brand with death. And you know, so they just completely flipped the script. They’re the fastest growing beverage in America. Yeah, by far. And they’re a startup, and they’ve quadrupled their quadrupled their sales in the last two years just because they dare to do it a little different and and have some fun and think about every industry, all right. And you mentioned you’re in Detroit automotive industry, it’s all the same.
Dan
Yeah.
Mark
What you think about retail and luxury goods? And my, the one that is the one that astounds me is pizza. You know, I mean, cause pizza if anything, should be crazy and fun. It should be pizza. And like, what’s the most memorable thing we’ve got going on in pizza right now? Nobody out pizzas the hut. What does that even mean?
Dan
Yeah.
Rachel
Yes.
Mark
Shake it up. I mean, shake it up.
Rachel
Yeah.
Dan
Well, you think about like.
Mark
Grab your customer by the caller and say listen to me, I’m doing something new.
Dan
Yeah. It’s kind of I I think about Wendy’s with that, with their social media, like when they went on, when they went on Twitter. And they’re just, you know, roasting everybody and people talk about it for years and years and and that stands out as like something new.
Mark
Yeah. Now that’s getting old, yeah.
Dan
In fast food has nothing to do with the burger, but it’s like. You know, it’s something that gets people talking and it’s and it’s maybe not quite as far as the. What is it, PT Barnum’s All publicity is good publicity. It’s not quite that far, you know, like you said, you don’t want to be offensive.
Mark
Right
Dan
You don’t want to be you don’t be these different things. But it’s It’s that publicity doesn’t have to be necessarily laser focused on what it on the exact message, it can be on a bigger it can be on the actual marketing initiative itself, it can be on that piece of audacious marketing and grow the pie.
Mark
Yeah, I mean I I and and I want to emphasize that every single creative genius I talked to emphasized that it starts with strategy.
Dan
Yeah.
Mark
There is a strategy. There is a message.
Dan
Yeah.
Mark
And and everybody’s, like, rowing in the same boat saying we are going to create more sales for this company.
Dan
Yes.
Mark
But the but the people who are really doing great things today, they’re just you, you you’ve got to break out, you’ve you’ve you’ve got to break out in new ways. And you know, you Rachel was talking about the genes saying, well, at least people are talking about it. That is the key idea.
Dan
Yes.
Mark
That. I mean, what is media today, what do we really trust in media? But we trust each other.
Rachel
Hmm.
Mark
And if you can create something worthy and memorable and conversational, that earns you a place in the conversation, that is the best advertising you could ever get. That is the purest form of marketing you will ever you will ever have.
Rachel
Yeah, the online chatter and conversation that keeps these things alive and makes them go further with customers is really the best free marketing you can ever have. It’s if you can do something that makes people think and get online and dissect and talk about that’s like, I mean, that’s kind of the the gold, right?
Mark
Oh, 100%, yeah.
Rachel
It’s not just you saying it. You talked about who is saying it that kind of goes back to the who saying it you’ve said what you need to say now is the company. But if you can get your like third party validation from the general public online,
Mark
Yeah.
Rachel
That’s when you’re like we’ve struck gold I think.
Mark
Yeah and again to get back to the idea behind the book, AI or, you know, word of mouth marketing that is human. It is only human is 100% human. AI cannot touch it. Yeah. So you wanna be relevant and meaningful as a marketer? If that’s one of the things you should be focusing on.
Dan
Yeah, yeah, totally agree. And to kind of continue down the AI path you had mentioned before, we hopped on here, a new project that you have in the works. Tell us a little bit more about that. How does that kind of connect the dots from “Audacious” into what’s coming next?
Mark
Yeah. Well, a few months ago I was asked to participate in a research report and they gathered 300 futurists. I think they had 299. They needed one more, so they asked me. They said how will AI change humanity by 2035.
Rachel
It’s a big question.
Mark
Yeah, well, it’s an impossible question.
Rachel
Yeah.
Mark
But the thing that was interesting is that no one really knows what’s going to happen with AI next. Even the people running these companies.
Rachel
Yeah.
Dan
Yeah.
Mark
However. If you get 300 experts to together to think about this issue and they agree on some things. That is an interesting road map, yeah. So they basically came up with 12 different aspects of humanity. That will be changed that we are being rewired by AI. And so I reflected on this report and I thought, well, gosh, if humanity is changing, that means our customers are changing. And nobody’s talking about that.
Dan
Yeah.
And if if we’re gonna be successful in the marketing world, we better understand that. And so I took excerpts from this report with, with their permission, and I’ve created a new book, which will be published in about two weeks, called “How AI changes your customers”. And it I think it’s. It’s profound. It’s it’s scary. And I think what you need to do is sort of like put the emotion behind you and say this is happening and I’m kind of unsettled by this. But what’s the opportunity here? Because every time there’s a disruption in the status quo, that means, you know, it’s it’s. It’s gonna be an opportunity for someone who’s ahead of the curve.
Rachel
Yep.
Mark
And if you if you know these things first, you’re gonna have some advantage. So look, one of the examples that I’ve been thinking a lot about is that. People are. Abdicating their thinking to AI. They they’re abdicating their decision making to AI. And human nature is if there’s a shortcut, we’re gonna take the shortcut. We don’t wanna do the work. If I can just get an answer, I’m going to get an answer.
Dan
Yeah. Work smarter, not harder.
Mark
So and and and and what we’re seeing is this is impacting human beings in, in very profound ways, and especially we’re seeing this in the schools where you can, if you have to do an assignment, you can go to AI to get the answer. But if you don’t do the work. You don’t have the knowledge.
Dan
Right.
Mark
I could ask AI to write a book for me and it would be out there. But when I write a book, it’s like getting a master’s degree. I study and research and write for two years and at the end of that process I have a new capability. This is a process called phoresies. By doing the hard work, it integrates the the knowledge it’s embedded in you. You have new wisdom that you can now use to talk to people, consult with people, help people, teach people you can’t, you never get that.
Rachel
Yeah, it changes how you interact with the world when you do that.
Mark
Right.
Rachel
Because it changes the lens that you see a lot through because of the knowledge that you have.
Mark
Yeah. So and what’s happening, so I had a a conversation with a young woman, 20 year old college sophomore over the weekend and she was telling me she said I use AI every, every day, all the time, every hour of the day, and it is making me dumber. She said I I think I’ve crossed the line when I won’t send out a text message without asking, she says she went without asking chat first. That’s, I guess that’s the name now chat, she said. And I’m concerned. I’m. I’m really concerned that this is making me dumber. Now scale that across billions of people. And so how, like does this mean we have to dumb everything down? I mean how how do we market to people who who don’t want to think or who can’t think anymore?
Rachel
Yeah, you.
Mark
So that’s that’s an interesting implication. And then that starts to get into decision making because you know it now people’s trust in AI is, is, is, is going up. And I recently went to a trip on a trip to Paris and ChatGPT planned the whole itinerary for me. And so I stayed where it told me to stay, and I ate where it told me to, ate, eat, and I visited the places that told me to visit in order, and I used the transportation system it told me to use to get there. I didn’t see an ad.
Dan
Yeah.
Mark
I didn’t read anything. It made the entire purchasing decision for me and so now we’ve got to think about, what does marketing mean when the customer isn’t the customer? AI is the customer. It’s like selling diapers. You know, we’re not selling diapers to the baby. That’s the end user.
Dan
Right.
Mark
Somehow we’ve got to influence the person who’s the caretaker.
Rachel
The middleman.
Mark
AI is the caretaker now. AI is making the decision. So marketing is like we’re getting into a whole new world and that’s what I’m exploring in this new book.
Dan
Yeah. And I I think that you know from from a content marketing standpoint too is like is on is what’s on your website optimized so that AI is able to find it marked up in the way that it can you know reference these things when people ask questions but something that you just mentioned you don’t see an ad in that entire vacation planning process, right? It makes me wonder like at what point does paid space in an AI?
Rachel
You’re gonna start to see it, I mean.
Dan
Models start coming around. Yeah, like when does the Google search ad of ChatGPT?
Rachel
Googles come out and said in their AI overview and search they’re gonna start incorporating ads, right? I mean, they’re gonna get their bag where they can. Yeah. I think the two things that I’m getting from a lot of what you’re saying is we’ve lost the problem solving critical thinking ability, right? That’s one thing, because if we need to solve a problem, you can put it in there and it can help you solve that problem versus you having to work through some of the steps to get there. Right. I think the reasoning is what’s missing versus just saying here’s my problem, what should I do about it is one. And #2 is that social aspect. I mean I think the world’s been concerned about the younger generations ability to talk to other people and socialize in person for quite some time, and this is just making it worse, right? If she can’t even send a text message without consulting AI first, we’ve lost the plot like that is you should be texting people that you can just have an open conversation with. And then if something arises, you can handle it. So those are like 2 big red flags I see.
Mark
Yeah, there there’s huge red flags. And then, you know, we also get into this idea of empathy. There’s another way that humans will prefer to have meaningful relationships with non human entities. This is already happening. And again, I mean, if you’re like, if you’re a parent or a grandparent, I mean, this is going to really maybe sends a shockwave through you, but again, we just have to see this is happening. It’s not gonna, you know, it’s it’s not gonna be stopped. And you know what? What does it mean? What does it mean to our business? What does it mean to our brand? And you know what does and how does it change our customers? We need to be thinking through those things and I don’t think anybody could be prescriptive right now because we don’t know what’s going to happen. But we, we need to say, hey, there’s a non 0 probability these things are going to happen, some of it already is happening, we’ve got 300 experts, you know, and like 90% of them agree this is, you know, thinking is going to deteriorate.
Rachel
Yeah.
Dan
Yeah.
Mark
Relationships are going to deteriorate. Empathy is going to deteriorate, so we better pay attention to it.
Dan
Yeah. Yeah, that’s that.
Rachel
It’s giving I’m feeling a little existential when we talk about it.
Dan
Yeah, yeah. Some slight dread creeping in, yeah.
Rachel
Yeah, just a little bit. Just a little bit. I think AI can be very powerful in a lot of ways when used correctly, right? When used in the right ways. You’ve talked about your customer is changing, right? So if we’re going to be marketing to our customer and the customer is changing, how do you change who you’re talking to? I think a lot of people take an audience first approach. And so you have to understand. How your audience is interacting with AI and different things to be able to reach them. Like we always say, know your audience, but there’s so many different now layers of who your audience is and how they’re interacting and where they’re getting their information that you have to think through. So it just I think it’s going to take so much more like you said, creative thinking to breakthrough that. But just understanding and it’s just not as simple anymore of like.
Dan
Yeah.
Rachel
They’re this old. They make this kind of income they are interested in these activities like it goes so much deeper.
Mark
Well, it it it, it does but I also want to maybe comfort you that you know a lot of traditional marketing is still going to work because there are overrides and I’ll give you an example. So my trip to Paris, I also did some other things, so for example. I have a good friend. I am gluten free. She is gluten free, she said you gotta go to this bakery when you’re in Paris, which I did. Why? Word of mouth marketing, right?
Dan
Yeah.
Mark
I also there were certain stores and certain museums I wanted to go to because I love those places. I love those brands. Those are brands that have this emotional connection to me that’s been built up over years. So no matter what AI says, we’re still going to love something because you know, this is something I used to do with my dad.
Rachel
Yeah.
Mark
This is the way my mother used to make cookies. You know, this is where we spent our first anniversary. You know, this is a brand that won’t let me down. They helped me out when I was really having trouble. I will always use this bank. I will always use this insurance company so brand is more important than ever.
Dan
Yeah.
Mark
Storytelling, emotional connection, it’s more important than ever because there will be override that will short circuit, you know the AI recommendations.
Dan
Yeah. The emotion part I think is key because we are not, we are not robots yet. So as long as we still have that, we still have some connection that you can make through good communication.
Rachel
Well, and you can always. Yeah. And if you, you have those things that you want to do, putting them in AI and saying here’s what I want to do in Paris, by the way, these are the things I must hit now make your recommendations surrounding these things right, like your plan could even be based off of that human marketing, right? And what you know, in Word of mouth. And then it’s just filling in those gaps around.
Mark
Right. Yeah, I wanna say this because I saw a commercial for it.
Rachel
Yeah, yeah.
Mark
Because I was checking it out and thought a lot had a lot of good reviews.
Rachel
Yeah. Yeah, right, right. I like that. OK. So is a closeout question. We like to ask people and I’m very interested in what your answer is here. Knowing what you know now and today, what advice would you give your 21 year old self?
Mark
I I I I hate that question.
Rachel
Why?
Mark
Well, well, we get the actually, I get that question a lot
Rachel
Sure.
Mark
And different and in in different forms. You know the the the implication would be that I would, I would to spend some kind of wisdom to to do something more or do something less. And though, I mean I the way I look back at my life is I did my best and I learned and I got beat up an that’s that’s who how I am today. I’m in a place where I feel so fortunate that people listen to me. They read my books. They pay attention to me. I’ve got a platform. I’m in and I I live a life that’s very contented right now. I’ve been through a lot of hurricanes. I wish I didn’t have to go through.
Dan
Yeah.
Mark
But you know, here I am. So I I would. I would go back to my younger self. And say you know, good job, keep going, work hard. You’re going to have problems I wouldn’t wish on anyone, but it’s going to be its going to be OK.
Rachel
Yeah. Maybe enjoy the ride and keep doing the best you can with what you have. I mean, that’s right and that’ll land you where you’re at.
Mark
The other piece of advice would be don’t get divorced in your peak earning years.
Rachel
I I love that.
Dan
Practical, practical advice.
Rachel
Very practical, incredible. Well, Mark, thank you so much for joining us. This has been I love conversations like this so thanks for thanks for doing this with us and we’ll link to your book in the description of this episode too and your websites we’ll can find.
Mark
Great, thank you so much.
Rachel
Yeah, absolutely. See you. Thanks again to Mark for joining us today. As I mentioned, we’ll link his book and website and everything in the description, so keep your eye out for his upcoming projects and things that he’s he’s working on. Follow him on socials and keep up to date.
Dan
In the meantime, check out “Audacious” for the latest.
Rachel
Absolutely. We’ll see you next time.
Dan
See you.
