frankly… Episode 97: Community Is an Output, Not an Input

In this episode of frankly…

The transcript below is AI-generated and may contain minor inaccuracies. Tune in to the episode audio to hear the full conversation! 

Transcript

Dan

Hello, welcome to Frankly.

Rachel

Hello.

Dan

This week we are talking with Ali Weiss, who is the co-founder and CEO of NoBiggie, which is a beverage brand for kids. Sparkling drinks made for real fruit, water, and fizz. But before joining or founding NoBiggie, Ali was with Glossier as their Chief Marketing Officer and held other positions going back to when she started in corporate strategy with BlackRock.

Rachel

Yeah, starting in venture capital is crazy. Like what a cool start.

Dan

A wide and varied career path. So she was really great to talk to. I think you’ll enjoy this interview. We talk about kind of seeing it from both sides, from the founder and the CMO, talk about what it’s like marketing to kids and, in turn, their parents. And a range of other things that kind of dive into the world of consumer marketing that we don’t get to hit on quite as often as we like.

Rachel

Yeah, I really feel like she does such a good job of talking about brand and we ask her a little bit about building community. And she’s just very smart and like everything that she says, you’re like, oh, wow. Like it’s just, it’s good. Everything she has to say. So I think it’s a really good episode. Anyone from just starting in your career to, kind of having an established career, it’s a good listen for sure. Something different.

Dan

Yeah, so we’ll link more information about NoBiggie so you can check them out in the description. But with that, we’ll turn it over to Ali.

Rachel

Hi Ali, welcome to Frankly.

Ali

Thank you for having me.

Rachel

Absolutely. So always want to start with your background because you have quite an interesting background. You’ve done a lot of different things in your career. So tell us a little bit about your journey. What led you to where you are today co-founding NoBiggie.

Ali

So my career has always sort of sat at the intersection of brand, consumer strategy, and most importantly, building. So I actually started my career in a very different place working at BlackRock, where I was working for a large public company. And I had several roles there over the five years that I was there. But I think the most important thing that I learned there was actually that company was truly still building. It was much bigger, but it was in the context of being a very early financial institution and got to sit in the corporate strategy group there and worked as chief of staff for one of the executives there that was building a newly acquired business, their ETF business, iShares. And so even though it’s so different from what I do today, I didn’t know it at the time, but it taught me so much of what I actually have been able to apply to the rest of my career, which has all been in CPG. So my foray into CPG started actually not even when I’d say like I started my career. I’ve been obsessed with consumers since I was a kid. I joke that my mom would get so annoyed when she was trying to check off her grocery list in the grocery store and it would make her just stand in the cereal box aisle because I was trying to understand what Fruit Loops and Cocoa Puffs and Honey Nut Cheerios were trying to communicate to families and kids. And that has like truly carried over to what I do today. And just I’ve always been obsessed with that. So I started my career in CPG as the rise of D2C was happening. So my first foray into that was when I spent time at Harry’s, the razor company, super early on. That was in 2014. And then following that, I joined Glossier and was there for seven years as CMO, helping scale from the earliest days, building out all facets of and sort of in true startup sense, like lots of other functions too and everything that really touched the customer and really learned what it looks like when a brand becomes part of culture. It was when beauty brands got to sort of redefine what beauty was. And then I went to a venture studio where I got the real zero to one experience. And that was sort of after the, what I’d say like venture reckoning of what it looked like to fund a consumer brand. And so that zero to one building in that phase was really, really scrappy. And both of the companies that I ran and then incubated with the venture studio were both focused on family as the consumer. And it was around when I was also starting my family. Now I have three kids, six, five, and one. And that really helped me understand family as a consumer and what families were looking for in different experiences. And I had always had a long list of ideas I had, and I finally knew it was time to start something myself. So that’s where we are today, where I’ve started NoBiggie, which launched in May, which is a juicy kids sparkling drink that I can tell you a lot more about. And I’m really building something where we’re reimagining the everyday treat for kids and building an experience that’s built around the way real families live.

Rachel

Well, congratulations on starting something new after that career. That’s got to feel very exciting. What was maybe like, if you could pinpoint it, what was the one time that you said while you were working, like you said, this is a time to start your own thing, but what was that? Was there a moment that happened, a situation that happened that you were like, this is it for me. Like now is the time you had a conversation. I always love hearing that from founders because I feel like there’s usually something.

Ali

For me, I really think that it was the first time that I was like, this product has to exist and I’m the one that needs to build it. It’s just this like deep feeling. And it was this interesting, I was in sort of this interesting period of creation. I actually stopped using all social media when I had the opportunity from a career perspective for over 2 years. So I didn’t use Instagram or TikTok. I did use LinkedIn. So when I say all social media, but I didn’t use Instagram or TikTok for over 2 years. And it was this interesting, I was really, really focused on being present with my kids. I was pregnant with my third child and I was just like, this is my opportunity to like, not have that in my life and think about what life looks like without a feed. And in particular, kids live without a feed. And so I really got to see the world through their eyes in so many different ways. And so while it wasn’t one moment, it was really this really important chapter to me where it came from this creative place of thinking about how you live real life, not how you live life for a feeder and algorithm. And I think that’s so important and inherent to so many of the truths on which I built NoBiggie. So that was really, I think the moment and period in time that made me certain that I wanted to start something.

Dan

You mentioned the truths that you builded on. What are some of those things? What are some of those things that kind of like define what the brand is or why it’s so different or important to you?

Ali

Yeah, I mean, one of the key things for us that is a core insight just in kids is that they want something that’s uniquely made for them and that’s theirs. And it’s this really interesting thing is like, I think people have done, many brands have done a good job doing that for particular ages, like in toddlers, right? Or in sort of the next age group. But what I love about NoBiggie is it appeals to kids of all ages and even like the inner child who just wants a little bit of like play in their life and grownups. So that’s really the core insight is that feeling like it’s theirs. I would joke, I mean, to get drink specific for a second, like my kids would drink, name your sparkling water that was in our pantry. And I would always say, can you share it with me? It was this 12 ounce can, they would never finish it. They’d be like, no, I want one that’s mine. Or like you would pull out, you know, a glass of wine or even like our own special like non-alcoholic Alberti or something like that. And the kids would be like, where’s my special drink? And so I think that like, there’s some psychology of it’s like, it’s mine and it’s made for me that this is really built on, and the way kids really live their life that’s true. And then the other thing too is like kids learn and live and exist through play in so many ways in their life. And especially when they’re not in the unstructured environments like school or teams or things like that. No biggies built on the idea of just like having a little bit of fun in those in between moments, right? And those in between moments are not the birthday parties, not the tournaments. They’re like the after school sitting at the kitchen counter debriefing about your day with your sibling. And so elements of our brand we have game boards in our four packs, we have prompts and dares on our cans. So that true learning and existing through fun and a little bit of that lightheartedness that is so inherent to the way kids live their life was really important to what we’re building too.

Dan

Yeah, the box idea is so close. I was reading up about that. But you talked a little bit there about kind of what’s in it for the kids. Like this is my special thing. This is, you know, it’s a fun beverage and all that good stuff. But I think one of the unique things probably that you face is that the person making the purchase is not always the person that you’re marketing to. How do you kind of balance that, like the kids’ excitement and the parents actually clicking buy now?

Ali

Yes. I mean, so there’s, this isn’t new, right? This is true of any kid product, but it’s products ultimately have that are made for kids ultimately have to win twice, right? They have to win with the kid and you have to get them to say, I want that. Like there’s this desirability that you have to build up in kids. And I actually did before we launched a lot of talking to toy creators because I was like, what is it sort of in like toys and collectibles that makes kids want it to build that desirability. And I think that’s really important. So we do that through our packaging and ultimately through taste, right? Like what really drives repeat purchase and a successful business in beverages is taste. So we made sure to deliver that. I’m lucky myself and my co-founder between the two of us, we have five kids. So we have an amazing tasting panel that was tasting NoBiggie the whole time. Yeah. And then also like even actually super early, this is kind of a fun story. We did these plain aluminum cans with simple black and white labels on them and we sent those to 500 families, and have them taste and give us feedback. So the kids weren’t skewed by the bright colors or the jokes or the game boards. It was just sort of like taste it and tell us what you think. And even those people got excited by it. So we’re like, okay, if we’re gonna, if we win with that, then like we can really win with the whole experience. And then you have to get the parent to feel okay and find it easy to say yes. There’s so many things kids want. Screen time, American Girl dolls that are like expensive or big decision purchases or hard to say yes to. And so honestly, it’s just like the cleanliness of the nutrition of what’s in the can that makes it really easy for the parents to say yes. And the fact that it’s like they could, kids can drink it every day. And it’s just like not a big thing to think about, right? It’s a little bit of a treat, a little bit more expensive than water, but it’s like not, it’s not like a big indulgence. And so I think that ease of saying yes, those two ways that those things complement each other. And so our entire go-to-market approach is focused on driving both of those things and ideally doing them at the same time. So having kids and parents experience NoBiggie together and see that desirability and see that easy yes at the same time.

Rachel

You mentioned direct to consumer and I believe Glossier is still only direct to consumer. Is that true?

Ali

It is not. It actually is omni-channel ultimately, but I left in 2022 and that was when we were going into Sephora.

Rachel

Okay, because I was going to say, I used to use their products often and there was one I needed to use over and over and I was always like, oh, I need to hit the shipping minimum. And it was so funny because I would always buy more because you have to hit it, right? But you can’t hit it. But I feel like that brings up kind of an interesting point with kind of where you’re at in your journey with NoBiggie is you have to really do start with just like direct consumer from your website. People have to find you. And I think your cereal box example is good with kids. They want to see it, touch it, feel it. You have to get it in front of them. So I’m sure part of your hopeful strategy is getting it into stores, maybe down the line. But talk even a little bit about that, of people finding this product and with kids knowing that it really has to be in front of them sometimes for them to experience it. What kind of challenge has that brought you with marketing? What have you had to work through?

Ali

I mean, a huge part of our strategy. So we’re available D to C. We also launched on Amazon, which I find is a channel that some people are more easily convinced by just because of the convenience and families and, in particular, parents are just ordering on there almost every day for various needs for their house. But nonetheless, you still don’t have that IRL touchpoint. So we’re really starting to build that both in our own backyard. We’re based in New York. So in the New York area, we have some experiential partnerships where we’re working with places like craft studios and play spaces and local public school block parties. We’re really plugging into places where families are making memories together and having NoBiggie show up in those places, which is really important. And then we’re also building that in other people’s backyards through our NoBiggie Neighbors program. So NoBiggie Neighbors is a super simple program for people to apply to. You basically go to one, we go to a page on our website, you give us a little information about an upcoming event and you get free or discounted NoBiggie for your event. And so the whole idea there is, okay, I am hosting a back-to-school BBQ at my house with 30 families. We’d love to have NoBiggie there. It’s our drink of choice. All the kids are asking for it. We give you 2 cases, complimentary on NoBiggie, and you get to share those with your friends. And then your friends and neighbors get their own discount through NoBiggie Neighbors for their first order. And so what I love about this is like not only we’re building in our own backyard, but we’re building in their backyards; we’re plugging into communities into that very natural family word-of-mouth recommendation engine that I really believe drives cultural relevance and brand growth.

Dan

Yeah, that’s such a cool program. I guess, how are you seeing people pick up on this so far? I mean, we’ve talked about, we were talking about this before, but the Treatanomics idea of like, making room for everyday indulgences, things like this, where, like you said, it’s not a huge difference from buying water, but at the same time, taking that next step to become a customer. Like, are you seeing a lot of pickup from things like that where it’s getting in people’s hands in their own communities? Or where are you seeing that most? Or kind of how do you see that like value positioning coming across?

Ali

Yeah, I think it’s a great question. So we see a lot of it through just like social sharing and community sharing, right? Like people are actually experiencing it one time at a birthday party, one time at the craft studio, one time at the beach restaurant, like different things. And so all of those impressions ultimately make people be like, okay, my kid really likes this. it feels really easy for me to tell them yes to it, easier than an ice cream or a donut or a piece of cake or whatever it might be. And like, yes, nothing wrong with giving those too, but like you’re able to say yes to it once. And I think there’s already this built in behavior within the parents where they’re like, I can treat myself to a drink too, whether or not that treats through the lens of like, I’m gonna have a glass of wine or the treats through the lens of I’m gonna pay $8 for an almond milk matcha latte with extra ice, whatever it might be, right? Like it’s like, and I think that like emotional response to that small treat the parent feels and they, and all, this is the psychological part of it from a marketing perspective. Like all a parent wants is to make their kid feel happy and joyful and fulfilled in every moment that they can. And so it’s like, we’re, as a parent, I’m always working hard of like, when I have to say no, I want to pick the nos that really matter. And so when you can find the yes that like makes something like get a little extra sparkle or feel a little special, why wouldn’t I do that? And so I think that whole idea of like that feeling is truly true. And you can you feel that as a parent, you can see that felt in your child and just make that decision to have give them that feeling too.

Rachel

I love that. I think that’s such a good point of like you want to see joy in your kids and choosing your battles. So if it’s one more yes that you don’t have to argue about, then why wouldn’t you give it to them?

Ali

Exactly.

Rachel

Pulling back kind of to look at your seven years at Glossier. So, you worked at a time where they were really known for that community-led growth. So I think in today’s day and age, we talk so much about community and authenticity in a brand and really having to show up that way. But what do you think brands misunderstand about community in general? What actually has to be true for community to be a part of a growth strategy? What does that look like?

Ali

Very simply, I always say community is an output and not an input. And I think the biggest mistake you can make is thinking that community is an input. So basically saying, I’m going to take this community and make something of it, or I’m going to try to create community or call something a community. And in reality, at the end of the day, you’re going to do some action or drive some emotional response or create some connection between customers and the output therefore is community. I don’t think you can force people’s hands. And I think that’s where a lot of people might misstep, right? Just like putting together an affiliate program or trying to put together like a falsified WhatsApp group that’s like fill in the brand name community. I don’t think you get that until you actually create connection and create people relating to one another on shared values and shared experiences. And so I think a lot of work has to go into actually authentically creating community. You can create like social virality, you can create social sharing, but ultimately like community, which really has to do with like connection and relating to one another, I don’t think happens through algorithms or through like, you know, mass emails and mass seeding. And so I think that’s really for me, the big sort of like misnomer within community marketing, so to say.

Rachel

Yeah, I think we’re seeing consumer behavior shift so much. I think it used to be like you needed like 8 or something touch points maybe, with someone seeing your brand before they make a purchase or decision and, but the funnel has kind of been blown up for consumers. I think it was now there’s like 30 touch points or views that have to be out there because people want to like live a brand. They don’t just want to purchase from a brand. They want to relate to the brand. They want to feel like that brand relates to them. So I think you’re right. It has to happen very naturally on their own. And hopefully if it’s done right, you have a community. You don’t build, like you said, you don’t build the community. The community kind of finds you that wants to live that brand and become a customer that purchases again and again and again and again. And I think you’re doing you’ve set out to do that with NoBiggie through the Neighbor Program and a lot of these things where it’s that like repeat, how do you get them to keep seeing it and coming back? So you’re really kind of using that with the brand you’ve created?=.

Ali

I think that’s so true. I think you have to create things that are worth participating in, right? Like you can create a product and you can sort of like try to create a marketing funnel, but ultimately you have to have experiences that are worth participating in. And those can be on a really small scale or on a large partnership scale. And I think creating all of those moments where people feel like there’s authentic participation and connection is incredibly important. I actually just read an article about how there’s a lot of brands that are now starting to do offline experiences and not allowing you to have your phone. And I think that’s really interesting, right? Sort of like to your point, there’s this complete 180 on like, it’s not about the number of followers, it’s not about the number of impressions. Like you just have to have like true deep connections once again. And I think that got a little bit lost as everyone was just trying to like beat the algorithm to get followers and impressions.

Rachel

Well, I also think of the, and you were at Glossier during, I think when like the tripping with Tarte stuff was probably blowing up in the same space. But that has completely crumbled right at a time when it was like influencer brand trips, put it all online, create this lifestyle that people will really want to have and they’ll see our brand associated with it. And so they’ll want to purchase the product. And I feel like we’ve swung, I don’t know if it’s the reason for that, but we’ve swung completely the opposite direction to just what you said. People wanting to more live this, not see it online and have this, you know, aspirational feeling, but instead like, I want it to be attainable. I don’t want it to be so far out there that I don’t feel like I fit in. I want it to be attainable. I want to be a part of it and not feel like I don’t fit in that situation. So I really feel like maybe it took swinging so far one way to come back the other, but it’s just an interesting take, I think. So kind of thinking of that and kind of along these lines, you have led marketing within an established brand, high growth company. But now that you are becoming a founder, has it changed the way in anything that you’ve thought about the role of marketing? And what do you understand about being a CMO now that you couldn’t understand when you were one, kind of thinking retrospectively?

Ali

One thing that I knew then and also just hold really true now is that marketing is truly 1 interconnected piece of the entire machine, in particular, in consumer, right? Where sort of like brand and how you show up and go to market is everything. It’s not, it can’t be siloed and it has to be connected. And it also can’t compensate for some of the other things that are really important from an operator or like a founder perspective, things like product not being great, right? Like you could have the best marketing approach and if the product totally stinks, right? Like people aren’t going to buy it again or even want to buy it. Marketing doesn’t sort of like make up for things like inventory planning and making sure you have just enough, but not too much, right? And so I think just knowing there are things that I was always aware of when I was in the CMO role, but that I, as a founder, just are really, really critical to making sure the entire thing hangs together. It’s also what I love about the building phase is when you’re with a small, scrappy, really committed team is that you can see all of those parts and how they work together. I think that being a founder, probably the big switch has just made me a little bit more commercial in the way I think about marketing, that it has to do, like marketing needs to drive distribution, right? Like we need to be as in many places as possible. It’s not just about the campaign that drives awareness, but then is gonna create the product. It’s like making sure that you have all of those touch points. And so I think that has been a really important realization. And then the last thing I’ll say is just that I always find marketing is like best done when it’s not a department and it’s more like a articulation in a way of operating what the whole company believes to be true about the product. And operating in that way is hard but really important. And it’s the way I worked before CMO, but it’s different now when I’m like, okay, I have to make sure that’s known and valued by other functions and also integrated well into the way that we operate.

Dan

Yeah, and I mean, that really goes back into the building communities piece that we talked about before, because if you are just marketing for the sake of marketing, for the sake of awareness to try and get this without that kind of backing of the rest of the values and the company and the brand and the product, like there is that disconnect that people can see through really quickly, I think. You lose that. So you lose that so much more quickly than you can gain it.

Ali

Absolutely.

Rachel

One final question.

Dan

Yeah, So we always like to close on just kind of one thing, and it’s in a similar vein, but maybe going back a little bit further. So, what’s one thing that you’ve learned throughout your career, whether in marketing, whether as a founder, that you wish you could tell yourself going into that first career? Understandably a very different industry, but what’s something that you’ve come across in your path that you wish you would have known then?

Ali

Can I pick two things? I have two that are really top of mind. Okay, my first one is always take a step back and learn how the business and company you’re working in or for, right? You might work at an agency that has a lot of clients, you might get work at one business, how it actually works. What are its goals? You can get when you first start your career, I believe you can get so deep in a function and just like, I need to do this task that day. And I think you gain perspective really quickly about what you like and more about the purpose of your work if you actually find more purpose in your work if you actually understand the bigger why for what you’re doing. And I think that’s really important. Because I remember at first I was like, I just need to get this report done. I need to do this thing. Then when I backed up first thing, I was like, what is this all really in service of? It helped me just build like a stronger opinion. It helped me do my work better. So I think take a step back and heads up. I think potentially people are better at that today. There’s like podcasts galore, a lot more information to understand sort of the world that you’re operating in. But I do think that extra context is just so valuable. And then my second thing is just stay close to people who you think are truly exceptional. Like it’s all about the people. The work content’s really important. The function’s important too. But like at the end of the day, like my best experiences and most formative experiences is when I’ve just like truly admired, been inspired by and learned a crap ton from people who are really, really good at what they do.

Rachel

I love that.

Dan

I do think both of them.

Rachel

Yeah. The people thing is so important in any industry like that can. You can relate to that and know where you’re in. Well, Ali, thank you so, much for your time and all of your insight. It’s been a lot of fun. We’ll link to the NoBiggie website in the description of this podcast too so people can find that.

Ali

Great. Thank you so much for having me. It was fun.

Rachel

Thanks.

Dan

Thanks so much.

Rachel

Bye. Another big thanks to Ali for joining us today. If you enjoyed this conversation, definitely check out NoBiggie. Their website is just fun if you have kids. They’ll immediately, and she’s talking about it with the packaging and everything, but the website reflects that too. It’s just a fun brand.

Dan

If you’re planning a party, you know, check out their community program.

Rachel

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, more details in the description, but we’ll see you next time.